Meet Paul Lee:

In September 2020 Paul decided to learn to code and stumbled upon Scrimba. Just 7 months later he got an entry-level job in Tokyo πŸŽ‰

In this interview, I spoke to Paul about:

  • Anxieties and doubt learning to code
  • How Paul learned to trust the process and all of a sudden had 2 job offers
  • How developer jobs work in Japan (I learned two-day internships are common)
  • At Scrimba we claim "Our career path helps motivated students become hireable frontend developers for 1% of the cost" I asked Paul if we're telling the truth 😬

Want to learn frontend development and secure your first technical job like Paul did? Enroll in the Scrimba Frontend Developer Career Path πŸŽ‰

In case you'd prefer to read, we've transcribed and lightly edited our favourite parts of the interview here as well:

Alex from Scrimba:
Welcome to stories by Scrimba.

Paul:
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Very glad to be here. Thank you for having me. This is cool.

Alex from Scrimba:
It's so good to have you here. Your approach to finding a job is really unique, I think. At least I haven't met any Scrimba students who have found a job through an internship. Are internships only for really new young students? How did you use an internship to find a full-time job?

Paul:
So like I told you before, the job that I got right now, two day internships are quite common in Japan. And that's usually for graduating students or what they have here called [foreign language 00:00:45], which means second year graduates, who they graduated, but couldn't find a job, but is still looking for a job the next year. And companies offer these two day internships, which is almost like a trial. How would they do as a company member? And they give you tests or whatnot. And what we had to do was just a PHP coding test where we make a little card app. And I had no idea anything about PHP. So it was definitely a big challenge, a lot of copy and pasting.

Paul:
And that was last year, November, didn't really hear nothing from them afterwards. But then as I'm doing job hunting from this year, he eventually just sent me an email saying, "Hey, why don't we have a call?" And he was more reasoned. He first told me that I couldn't join because my Japanese skills is a little low. But then when we had the call, he said, "Well, the business is going up. And how is your Japanese now?" And obviously my Japanese has improved. I'm trying to learn every day. And said, "Well, I would like to have you on board." Well, why not? Let's do it. Let's go on, hey.

Alex from Scrimba:
That's awesome. That must've been such an exciting phone call to get after a few months passing.

Paul:
For sure. I was at my other work, part-time job, and I was like, oh man. I couldn't even hold my smile back. My boss was like, "What are you smiling for?" "You don't even need to know."

Alex from Scrimba:
That's amazing. So it sounds like in Japan, the culture is very different. These two day internships. I don't know if they exist anywhere else in the world.

Paul:
For sure. I never heard of them before and I've always... You see the flyers everywhere and especially in university neighborhoods. It's like, two day internship, what the hell are you going to do in two days? That's what I thought. But my experience was that two days felt two whole weeks.

Alex from Scrimba:
Oh, I bet. How do they decide who gets the internships in the first place? Is maybe the bar lower because they're doing so many, maybe, because they're quite short? Or is there a screening phone call at the very least to get the internship?

Paul:
Most of the internships you get, you join in an online career forum type thing where an HR company, a big one here is called Recruit. Recruit is a big company in Japan that holds these seminars for students or otherwise people who are unemployed, that companies that are looking for certain types of employees, like a company pitching event to students. I don't know if that's a thing in the West.

Alex from Scrimba:
I think there's open days at universities where different employers come in and they have a booth and they talk a little bit about what they're building and what opportunities they have.

Paul:
For sure. So it's very similar to that. But obviously it's online, most of them. Or we can go to the big ones, but I don't want to wear a suit.

Alex from Scrimba:
Did you learn about this internship at university? Were you studying when you learned about these internships or did you find the websites irrespective of any school or university?

Paul:
It was funny. I found the forum online, but I didn't really apply. But then the career center at my school sent me this email, "Hey, you're about to graduate. You should try to do something." I was like, "Oh, why not? Let's try to join." Because I never really liked these job fairs or whatnot. I don't know. I just felt it wasn't genuine, I feel like. It was just like, oh. Because Japanese is very, and I don't know if you know anything about Japanese culture. You've got to just play that formal image. Everyone's bowing. Everyone's being utmost formal. But it's just to play that formality. I just didn't like it. I didn't want to go there, but different once you actually do it.

Alex from Scrimba:
Well, I'm thinking if you have to do that during the career fair, you probably have to do in the workplace all the time as well, right?

Paul:
Exactly. Like I said in the message, if you're going to a Japanese company, you're going to feel that hierarchy where you're at the bottom bottom ranks and you're just bowing to everybody, you just got to say, "Yes."

Alex from Scrimba:
Oh my god. That would take some getting used to for someone like me from the UK, I bet.

Paul:
For sure. For sure.

Alex from Scrimba:
So when you were at school, were you studying computer science?

Paul:
No. Actually the school program, it's just a smaller school, a private school outside of Tokyo. And it only gives us economics major or international relations. So no, not a lot of computer related courses, except one in R, which is for one of the economics courses, just doing a lot of data analysis.

Alex from Scrimba:
So what you did at school had nothing to do with programming?

Paul:
No, nothing, nothing. I had zero. I did a little bit of R, but what do I remember from that? Nothing. I don't know. Linear regressions. I don't know.

Alex from Scrimba:
R and PHP are so far apart and [inaudible 00:05:38], React and JavaScript and all that stuff.

Paul:
I agree.

Alex from Scrimba:
So what got you into programming? I don't know. Where you on a certain path? If you were studying economics or something, you probably had some destination in mind. Where did the idea to start pursuing coding come from and where did you go once you had that idea?

Paul:
That's funny. I was really into project management and just working with people just because I got involved, I don't know if you know this community called Slush. It's quite big in Helsinki and Finland. That's where they're from. It's a big startup event conference. And from then on, I got more involved into tech and into IT. And then I was talking to people. I just love talking to people. But then obviously COVID hit and all the jobs that I was looking for and talking to people, they said, no, they're not going to hire anyone now. And so with everybody else involved, that 2020 was a shitty year for me. I'm sorry. Excuse my language.

Alex from Scrimba:
I'm sorry to hear it.

Paul:
No, it's all good. But my brother who's a full stack engineer in the States. He challenged me. He was like, "Hey, just try something. Try building a little bit website on your own, HTML, CSS and whatnot." And he just sent me some websites online, try it out. And what's funny is the first time I looked up front end courses, Scrimba popped in, the first time. This is not [inaudible 00:07:02] for sure, like a Google type thing, like front end courses, Scrimba popped up. And the first, the intro to HTML, CSS, I just hopped in. That was September. So a little bit before September. And I just fell in love with it. Kevin Powell, he teaches so well, makes sure everybody knows it. And it just clicked and then I was having fun and just the whole interactivity with the scrims and it just clicked. And I was like, "I'm going to be a hermit. I think this makes sense for me. Let's go. Let's grind it out. See what happens."

Alex from Scrimba:
I love that. That's amazing to hear. It makes my job feel even better. I love to hear those kinds of success stories.

Paul:
You guys definitely have something special going on. It's pretty interesting how this works. Because so many boot camps out there, you got to sacrifice an arm and a leg just to try to get in. I can't do that.

Alex from Scrimba:
They're expensive. We updated our tagline on Scrimba recently to, "Don't spend 15K on a coding bootcamp. Our career path helps motivated students become hireable friends and developers at 1% of the cost." Do you think we're telling the truth?

Paul:
That's definitely for sure. Of course as a person, you have to dedicate your own work, you have to have a work ethic to do it. But for sure. It's an amazing little platform you guys have. I love it. I go back to it all the time. I haven't even finished the whole boot camp yet. I'm still at the last module. But I'll always go back to everything. Even if I'm building, let's say something, I don't know something like gallery with that photo gallery and going back to that photo gallery and seeing how it's done and going back to mine. And it's just amazing. It just works.

Alex from Scrimba:
I love that. No, I think that's so important. You need to have the right motivation. I think you mentioned actually in one of the messages you sent me that I think you said something like confusion was your closest companion when learning to code. And I don't want to interpret it too much. I'd love to hear from you what exactly you meant by that. But I'm assuming that a part of it is actually learning to code is hard. Even with the best resources you have to dedicate a lot. But also at some point you realize, "Okay, maybe now I should start applying for jobs." But there's no roadmap. There's no guaranteed success. Every culture, every company is different. What did you mean by that when you said confusion was your closest companion?

Paul:
I think you said it best. Still now, there are times where it's like, "What the hell am I doing?"

Alex from Scrimba:
Me too, man.

Paul:
Or even when I'm looking for an answer, I don't even have a clear question. So it's like, "Well, what's going on here?" And I think a lot of part of that, especially in the beginning and maybe even sometimes now, I don't trust the process. Is it really going to work for me? Even if I put in this work, is it going to work for me? But I've come to really realize that, hey, just take your time, baby steps, learn the process. You don't know it, it's okay. Just keep trying. Just first get that muscle memory in. And then everything else will come smoothly out. Especially with array methods. Just write it, it'll stick, trust me.

Alex from Scrimba:
Have faith in the process, right?

Paul:
For sure.

Alex from Scrimba:
That's awesome. I suppose then how did you go from... One thing I'm curious about is how you prepared for your internships and what... Because I think you mentioned PHP, they just sprung that on you. You didn't really know what to expect. What was it like preparing for those internships? And I'm curious too, what do they look like from the inside? These two day internships sound crazy. Once you arrive on day one, what's that like?

Paul:
I've obviously looked up online what is a day like as an intern for a developer? And all those like videos you can see on YouTube and stuff. And right when I got there, they give you a computer, you sign a little piece of paper saying they're going to pay for your transportation and lunch. They give you a sheet that says, "Hey, build this." What? No, nothing else. Obviously they say hello, say hello to whoever. And they say, "Hey, if you need help, just ask." But then you're just on the desk, connect your laptop to the display and just go at it.

Alex from Scrimba:
That's crazy. It sounds a little bit like I spoke to someone named Nico on this podcast a few weeks ago, he's based in Germany and he did a phone interview. And then he went to their onsite office for a couple of days and they gave him a sketch file basically with a web design on it. And they gave him a day or two to translate that sketch file into a responsive website. Is that similar to the internship? Is it maybe just a different word for something very similar?

Paul:
I think that's definitely similar to that. The other internship that I had as well, the first task was similar to that. They gave you a couple of different files, a photo JPEG file, and said, "Hey, make this and see what you can do with it." And they don't really give you a lot of directions. How much should you build it? Is it okay if it's just the design and it's responsive or do they actually want me to have it functional and actually fetching something? Am I going to hydrate data somewhere? I don't know. Definitely, you just don't know. You just go, you ask around and then you eventually just say, "Okay, whatever, I'm just going to do whatever I can." And then just ask the senior dev, see if it's okay and whatever, see how that goes.

Alex from Scrimba:
That sounds pretty scary actually. The way Nico's was maybe a bit different is that I think he had supports, if he had a question. At the end of the day, you want to work in a team where you can ask questions. And so for an interviewer, seeing what kind of questions you ask and how you navigate problems, that's part of it. Was there some element of that? Did you have any support or was it practically just, "Hey, here's a task. We'll talk to you in two days when it's done."

Paul:
They tell you you can ask. But then when you're in that Japanese office and nobody's talking and everyone is just focused on their task, it's quite intimidating to even lean over and say, "Hey, excuse me." Because I don't know these people. I didn't even know their names. So it's practically like they want to see not just coding, but how will you figure this office atmosphere out? Are you going to be able to read the atmosphere? Are you going to come in line with us or are you going to go overboard and disrupt this atmosphere that's already been made?

Alex from Scrimba:
That is such an amazing observation because like we were just saying, there's no path to success. There's no formula. Everybody has a different opinion on what should go on your resume. Everybody has different advice about how you should navigate an interview. But what you just picked up on is whether you're in Japan or a company in the US, maybe it's more extreme in Japan, the culture difference, but every company has a certain type of culture, which is just a way of saying the way they like to work and survived and collaborate. And you need to bring a level of intuition to that, I think. And if you want to be successful, figure out maybe what you wear to the office isn't as important, but there is an element of that, like, "Oh, how do people conduct themselves here? Can I behave that way? And is this something I could see myself doing for a long time?"

Alex from Scrimba:
It's quite a blunt question, I think. I don't mean to put you on the spot, but to me that doesn't particularly sound like somewhere I would be very comfortable working. I feel like I would prefer if people were more encouraging and help me out and made me feel successful. Of course, you are okay with it because you pursued it and took a job there. I'm curious about your perspective of being a developer in Japan.

Paul:
So that culture, adapting to it would be pretty difficult. But for me, I lived on the road for four years, hitchhiking around. And then I went to the Korean military and then I came to Japan. So I know how to blend in. I don't really get uncomfortable with other people. So people sometimes tell me, "Hey, you can't talk." And I'm fine with not talking, I'm okay. So that's okay for me. So I think that's a little bit different. But as far as this company, it was more of the founder, his story and how he... Are you familiar with EY, one of the consulting firms?

Alex from Scrimba:
No. How do you spell it? So I can look it up afterwards.

Paul:
It's just EY. Ernest and Young, I think.

Alex from Scrimba:
Oh, the letters E and Y. What's it about? What's their story?

Paul:
So when they were in Japan, they didn't really have an IT consulting firm. And the founder at the current company I'm at, his original company was an IT consulting firm. And EY, they had a couple meetings and they eventually bought him out, bought the company from him. He became one of the execs there. And he had this amazing, really cool success story. And hearing that from him, I feel like I could learn so much not in just just coding and programming, but just being next to him and just understanding how he conducts himself. And that's one of the main reasons why I was like, "Okay, I think this is a good leader to follow, at least during my beginning of my career." That's why I chose and of course visa issues is a big, big thing.

Alex from Scrimba:
But there's so many things that go into it. Everybody's different. Every job is different. I think finding that perfect match is part of the battle.

Paul:
Exactly. And what was funny is, I don't know if this happens to you or anybody else, but you know how you really need something and then you find it, but then you start to get more options right when you find it and you need to start choosing. When I got this job offer, I got another offer, like I told you, at a different company. Which I preferred going there, but they only offered me an internship position and I needed the visa. So I eventually had to come here. But it was quite funny. I was really going crazy. Am I going to find a job? Am I going to find a job? Am I going to find it? Towards the end, options just started pouring in. I don't know if that happens to other people.

Alex from Scrimba:
It does. It definitely does.

Paul:
It's frustrating.

Alex from Scrimba:
Why do you think that is?

Paul:
I have no idea how, it just happened. It's just weird.

Alex from Scrimba:
No, I've experienced that and I've definitely heard it from other students as well, where for months and months it feels like nothing is happening. And then all of a sudden, the dominoes fall, and there are multiple offers or opportunities or leads to pursue. Maybe it's just the case of things just take a little bit of time. And by the time you're feeling a bit impatient, basically like, "Ah, it's a bit annoying. Why hasn't it happened yet?" Just waiting that little bit of extra time is when all of the return on investment, the return on all your hard work, maybe that's when it all all happens.

Paul:
For sure. It's pretty trippy.

Alex from Scrimba:
I'd love to know when you first started learning to code, what are some of the things that perhaps you wish you knew then that you know now?

Paul:
I still don't think I know now. Because I'm still at the very beginning. I'm still a fresh newbie. And when we talked before, I think it was just really understanding it takes time. Especially when I was in the first few modules in the JavaScript challenges. When I saw the solution, it's like, "Okay, that makes sense. But why can't I think of it like this?" And that took me to a whole rabbit hole of looking for how do programmers think, how do coders think? I went on days just trying to find out how do programmers think?

Paul:
I asked my brother and I asked my friends who are also devs. They're like, "Hey man, it's not an overnight thing." They sometimes still don't know and it's okay not to know. And I think it's more better accepting the fact that you're not going to know everything and that's totally fine. But just again, try your best to find that question first, instead of just looking for an answer. That's I think if I could tell my earlier self, "Hey, just chill out. You're going to get it. It just takes time. But just trust that process." Like we said in the beginning.

Alex from Scrimba:
How much time?

Paul:
What is that? I think it's a lifetime thing, lifetime learning. From going from front end stuff, JavaScript and then now I have to learn PHP. It's like once you think you can close the door or open the door, there's X number of doors. Now you got to also open, see what you're going to do. Because sure, you can stop after you can make some responsive design and website and whatnot. But is that what you really want to do? Is that why you got into it? Is that it? For me, no, I want to keep going. I fell in love with learning. If there is something up, just the other day my friends were talking about React Admin, I was like, "What the hell is React Admin?" "Go look at it." It's like, "Okay, there's another thing I got to learn." And it's fun for me now, it's a hobby for me now to learn it. So that's exciting.

Alex from Scrimba:
Always following my curiosity is satisfying. Once you have that foundation, you can always keep building on it. And so it sounds like you're going to be a lifelong learner.

Paul:
For sure. It's so rewarding. When I was living in South America, we were building permaculture, ecological homes, cob homes and build homes. I just always loved building things with my hands. But I was never good at using technology tools like this. And now I'm slowly getting into it and it's so rewarding to see it just right on the screen. Like, "Oh, there it is. Look at that. That's from my head."

Alex from Scrimba:
A hundred percent. It's the best feeling. I think for a lot of people, one reason I fell in love with coding when I wasn't good at maths and biology and stuff, because you learn it, but you don't get an immediate chance to use it. Whereas when you're building an app, everything you learn, you get to see the results immediately and that's so fun and motivating for a lot of them.

Paul:
For sure, what pushes you? I'm assuming you're still constantly learning and finding out new things yourself.

Alex from Scrimba:
Oh, absolutely. I think it just comes down to one of my core beliefs, which is you're on this planet, you might as well keep improving yourself and learning something new every single day. And I think I might've maybe moved a bit more towards the business side of code, which is maybe a little bit less on writing the code, compared to really thinking about how to use code to solve problems.

Paul:
That's very interesting. So is it you have a different goal personally or professionally you have two different goals within that world of programming?

Alex from Scrimba:
Oh, well, I'm quite lucky. I get to code as a hobby, mostly. My full-time role at Scrimba is not about coding, so much as community and sharing awesome stories like yours. And so I get to code a lot of fun, interesting side projects, which is nice because I don't have to worry as much about perfect code quality or writing tasks and stuff like that. But in previous roles where I've been a developer, I think it's quite easy to get lost in it. You almost forget your motivation for a little bit because you're always... And when you're part of a new team, they elevate you, you absorb information and you're always pushing yourself to try and be on a similar level to them. And at some point I think you realize where you've learned what you wanted to learn, but as you pointed out, there are so many things in coding, you couldn't possibly learn everything.

Alex from Scrimba:
And so at some point you hit a fork in the road where you're like, "Okay, I've been working on this PHP project for so long. I've learned a lot of really amazing concepts, learned how to work in a team, learned a lot about GitHub and testing." If you go and work on a No.js project next, these things come with you. They're transferable in a lot of ways. But then you realize actually I'm more passionate about No.js or a different problem domain. Maybe you're working on a customer facing app. Maybe you're working in an agency. Perhaps you wants to work in an NGO or something. That's another reason coding is awesome because it's such a broad scale. If you love sports, you could build an app for a football team and combine the two passions. If you love non-profits and helping people, you can go and work at an NGO and have a huge impact using code. What kind of work are you doing at your current company?

Paul:
For my current full-time offer, I'm going to start April 1st. That's my first starting day. But at the moment I'm working part-time at a cloud security company. But that's not IT related, more business side investments. And then I have also another internship, as I told you with Tangerine, a front end internship, using Angular. And what their specialty is, I don't know if you're familiar with beacon technology sensors. So they're for clothing stores that want to calculate how many customers come in, how long they stay, what they buy. They supply these beacons. And on the front end side, we give them fun little UI features, like setting the different settings on the strength of the wifi to detect the phones, wifi detector. And then maybe you can change the Bluetooth radius as well, how far that goes, stuff like that. And I'm not familiar with Angular at all. So I'm just a lot of copy and pasting.

Alex from Scrimba:
But it definitely sounds like your passion right now is for the front end side of things.

Paul:
Yeah, but that's the thing. I would like your opinion. Would you keep a bit room to change from front end to backend or even maybe just frameworks?

Alex from Scrimba:
I think you'll always have room to change because it's a really silly example, but say you're using JavaScript to write Angular ups and say, you're thinking about learning C# to write backend, or Python or something to write back-end apps. In if statements in JavaScript, there's an if statement in Python. It's very similar conditional logic, very simple example. But the point is there are so many little things which transfer. And actually the frameworks, this is going to sound a bit unbelievable if you're listening and you're new to coding, but the front end frameworks, they're not that hard to learn. It's quite quick to learn a front end framework compared to learning things like writing clean code, writing refactoring code, writing testable code, compared to learning how to collaborate in a team or learning how to structure code in different files so that its evolves very maintainably and stuff like that.

Alex from Scrimba:
These are the intermediate skills that actually, when you look at... Because remember I say relatively easy. Because we're lifelong learners, you and me, Paul. And anybody else learning, it takes a few years to really reach your stride and that's perfectly normal and okay. So once you get into your stride, your perspective changes a little bit and you can transfer your skills from one framework to another. Again, Angular versus React is a good example. There's a lot of differences between them. React is a library. Angular is a framework. But at the end of the day, the concepts are quite similar in that they are designed to build single page applications. Whereas Angular has built-in libraries to fetch data and has services built in.

Alex from Scrimba:
React, you'll end up installing a separate one, but it's going to work in a very similar way. If you wants to fetch data from an API, you still send a get request. And I could go on and on really because once you fetch data from a server, you have to sometimes cache it or something like that. And knowing you have to cache it is actually the thing you need to learn. Actually implementing the code to cache it, once you've done it in Angular, you'll quickly Google, "How do I do this in React?" Then it'll just become a lot easier, I think. So no matter what you're doing, I always think there's room to change.

Paul:
That's cool. That is good advice. Because I sometimes get into a habit of, "Oh, but I like how React is this way." I think that way, and my brother always tells me, "Stop being so focused with one. Be open-minded. It's okay." There are different frameworks and languages because there are different tools, you use it for different things. I think I got to get my mind around that more.

Alex from Scrimba:
One question I always come back to is, imagine you wants to build Facebook, for example. Do you use Angular or do you use React? Well, you could probably use either of them and still build the same end product and solve the same problem for your users. And so at the end of the day, I think a lot of it comes down to preference. And if you're a junior looking to get a job, it's tempting if you've been learning React to only look for React jobs. But to be honest, if an employer saw a lot of potential in you because you have an interesting background, it might not be to do with the code.

Alex from Scrimba:
You might be in the military, like you Paul and be like, "Damn, that's the kind of guy I want on the team. I think that's a really cool trait to have." Or it could be that you've been learning a lot of other things. The point is an employer might say, "Okay, you know React, you don't know Angular, but we can teach you that. We can teach you that quite quickly." Teaching you how to code from scratch isn't going to fly. But if you've put a lot of effort and you've been learning how to learn, and you've been learning how to structure applications, then you can always make that change. And so I think you can always move around if you want to.

Paul:
I'm guessing you've had a job where you had to learn on the job? How did that go?

Alex from Scrimba:
Every job you have to learn on the job, I think.

Paul:
I don't know. I'm excited to start. I don't know.

Alex from Scrimba:
I'm excited for you.

Paul:
It's going to be fun.

Alex from Scrimba:
I'm sure it's going to be great. Paul, how long did it take you? We spoke a bit about how long does it say to learn to code? It's like asking how long is a piece of string? It depends. How long did it take you from that? There was that day where your brother turned you onto coding. When was that and so we can figure out how much time between then and April 1st, when you start your first full-time job?

Paul:
From last August, 2020.

Alex from Scrimba:
Last August? That's rapid. That's really quick.

Paul:
I've actually tried to slow down a bit more. Just do one. Just chill out for a second. And that's one of the reasons why I haven't finished the Scrimba courses. I always keep going back. But definitely I think taking the time is important.

Alex from Scrimba:
I agree. It's a marathon, not a sprint.

Paul:
And how long did it take for you to get your first job?

Alex from Scrimba:
Well, it's a really good question because I would say three or four years actually. But I think in retrospect I could have probably got a job after one and a half or two years. I think I was the kind of person who was waiting too long for the perfect opportunity. When actually had I been a bit more proactive, I could have probably found success quicker.

Paul:
Did you enjoy your first job? Was it what you expected?

Alex from Scrimba:
Yeah, I loved it. My quick story is because, remember Paul, people are here because your story's awesome.

Paul:
No, people are curious about you too, man. You're the host.

Alex from Scrimba:
[inaudible 00:30:51] Well, I grew up in a very rural area where there a lots of farms, but not a lot of technology companies. And so it wasn't easy for me to just get a job because I also had to think about moving. And that I think slowed things down a lot in my case. Plus I was young. I started to learn coding when I was 15, 16. So my timeline was a little bit different than maybe other people. Because like I think is the theme in this episode, everybody's a little bit different, everybody has different goals, different frameworks, different cultures. There is no silver bullet, but it's nice to know because it's inspiring nonetheless to know you did it in about six or seven months. I think that's really inspiring no matter what. It might take someone listening longer. It might take them less time. But it's nice to hear sometimes that other people have been on a fairly lengthy journey and you can't learn to code in 30 days like some books and boot camps will have you believe.

Paul:
Exactly. Just definitely trust the process. It's not an overnight thing. You have to invest in your time and energy. It's going to be shitty, but that's how you learn.

Alex from Scrimba:
A hundred percent. Trust the process. That's going to be the title of this podcast episode, I think. Well, Paul, thank you so much for joining me on Stories by Scrimba. It's been a delight to meet you and I can't wait to share your story with the Scrimba community.

Paul:
No, thank you for having me. This is cool. Always dig it. Always dig it.