How Robert got his first developer job at 33

Alex from Scrimba 08.Mar.2022

Meet Robert Corrado 🇺🇸! Rob tried to become a coder several times, but as a business owner and Dad, it was hard to carve out time and really make it stick! It was during the pandemic, Robert realized his opportunity to double down on his passion and finally learn to code with Scrimba. As his confidence in JavaScript grew, he started to apply for jobs and sending out feelers. In this episode, you'll learn from Rob's experience doing several coding interviews and how he finally found success!

🔗 Connect with Robert

⏰ Timestamps

Introduction (0:00)
From business owner to coder (01:45)
Deciding to finally go for it (04:01)
Learning Spanish vs. learning JavaScript (05:01)
Robert’s greatest challenges and how he overcame them (06:37)
Employers don’t want someone who only knows HTML and CSS? (08:33)
As a Junior, you can do the task, you just need a bit more time (10:11)
Learning to code and career a little later in life and with kids (11:07)
What Rob learned from his unsuccessful interviews (13:18)
Self-confidence and the job search (15:54)
How Rob got 8 job interviews (17:18)
How Rob got his first Junior developer job (18:48)

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💬 Transcript

Alex (00:01): Hello, and welcome to the Scrimba podcast. On this weekly show, I speak with successful devs about their advice on learnings of code and getting your first junior dev job. I'm Alex, and today I'm joined by Rob from New York, who recently got their first full-time junior dev role. In the past, Rob ran his own business doing property damage restoration, but when the pandemic hit and the world slowed down, unfortunately, so did Rob's business. Fortunately, however, Rob actually sped up his web development journey and learned to code front end websites on Scrimba and a few other websites while also being a dad and a husband. This is in contrast to someone like myself, who was fortunate to get to spend all day, every day learning to code without any sort of serious responsibilities. So much respect to Rob for that.

Rob (00:51): I was doing it full time for a while. Then I was worried about, I might have to get to a point where I get a full time job and then I do this when I can. And I said, well, guess what? I'm going to keep doing it when I can then, and going to get to where I need to be.

Alex (01:03): He definitely had some challenges, as we all do when we shoot sport an ambitious goal. In particular, and tell me if this sounds at all relatable, Rob understood HTML and CSS, but struggled a little bit to make the JavaScript part stick, which he felt he needed to know to get the kind of job he desired. It's a great story, because Rob did end up rocking JavaScript very well and ended up with not one, but two opportunities from which to choose. In this episode, you're going to feel inspired by Rob's perseverance and learn how he went about finding a job, sending out feelers, and always keeping an eye out for the next potential opportunity, even though he did not have a computer science degree or any sort of official qualifications. You are listening to the Scrimba podcast. Let's get into it. What were you doing before you decided to start learning to code?

Rob (01:54): I've done a bunch of stuff, honestly. Right before that I had my own company and I did property damage restoration, which is completely different. It was never a passion of mine. Most of my previous jobs, let's say probably the last 10 years, have been out of opportunity. An opportunity came about and I took it because it just ... you know, it was a good opportunity. And sometimes it's more about hey, this is a great opportunity. Let's just see where it goes, rather than unnecessarily pursue something. And when I came out of school, I didn't really have a path, what I wanted to be.

Alex (02:29): Sounds familiar.

Rob (02:31): But I always did want to code. My first time I ever got into doing anything was back in high school. I used to have one of those ... I don't know if you ever saw those big books. It was called HTML. And it was a book you write in. I did that and I liked it and it was cool and stuff. Over the years, I had kind of played around with the idea. I did a course. A couple years ago, I started CS school. I started a computer science class, and then my company started doing better and it kind of took me away from it, but I finally got to a point where the pandemic kind of ... it hurt my company. It was like, "I think I got to shift to something else." And my wife was like, "I'm so sick of you talking about getting into computer science and playing around with it. If this is what you want to do, do it." So she kind of pushed me and was like, "It's time." It was great to have that. And that's it. I was kind of determined at that point and I'm like, "You know what? I'm going to get this done."

Alex (03:28): It's mad to think, isn't it, how much the pandemic has changed so many of our lives. Because the whole world was kind of on pause, there was no longer any pressure to do the things we always doing. There was no pressure to go out and find a job because nobody was really hiring at the beginning. There was no pressure to go and do your job in person because people were social distancing. And then it's during those times you start to reflect on what you truly want to do. And it sounds like, to me, coding was that thing sort of gnawing at you. What were you planning to do differently this time? How did you structure your learning and about learning to code for real this time?

Rob (04:01): I think it was more of a determination, "I'm going to do this." Before, it was kind of like, "Oh, let me just look into it." And I took a course, I did a Udemy a couple years ago. I was doing all right, but I got stuck. I hit that wall that everyone hits all the time. And I hit again, and it was more of just not going to give up. So part of my worry about trying to ever get into this field was I took eight years of Spanish between high school and college. It was about eight years of taking courses, and I just could not do it. I'm not terrible right now. If I'm talking with someone, I could pick up bits and pieces, I can get maybe the gist of what someone's saying, but it's just so fast. I always should have gotten to a point where I was talking to someone. That was something I should have done, but that kind of gave me a fear of, "Hmm, if I can't do that kind of language, this is also kind of a language." But then I learned it's not really a one to one comparison. There may be some similarities, but it's really not the same thing. So that was always a fear of mine.

Alex (05:01): I get it. If you've tried and ... it sounds like you succeeded, actually. Your Spanish is much, much, much better than mine ever will be. I'm pretty sure about that. But it's interesting what you said, that you should have started speaking to people a bit sooner. When you learn a language and you learn to read and write it, it's not quite the same as participating in a dialogue. And something a lot of non-native speakers say is they just speak so fast or they use colloquialisms that didn't exist in my lesson, the slang and things like that. So reading and learning from a textbook or an isolated class was never going to be the best way to learn the language. But funnily enough, in programming people often make a similar mistake, don't they? Because they will watch Udemy courses or YouTube videos or read books, but not at actually participate in building software. Do you think that's a fair comparison?

Rob (05:47): Yeah. Oh, absolutely. That is the part where my concern was, because doing the courses and not coding is very similar to ... it's the same thing. You're not doing it. You're not using what you learn. You could know what a map is as an array method, but if you don't practice it, you might be able to do the exact thing that they showed you to do, but once it starts changing a little bit, you have to actually understand it. It's the same thing when someone will speak Spanish, and there'd be times when they'll say something ... I actually used to have a friend a long time ago who he would help me, a coworker, really. There would be certain times he'd use Spanish and I'd be like, "What'd you say?" And he'd be like, "Oh, I said this." And I'm like, "Oh, I know that. Why couldn't I understand? I actually know that," but it's just ... it's slang. Look, it's not said the same way. You know what I mean? To learn cabasa, then hear a native speaker say it is totally different.

Alex (06:37): That's interesting. That sounds like it was one of the challenges then, letting to code. There are so many challenges. So I'm actually kind of curious to hear which ones stand out to you. What did you find particularly challenging and how did you overcome those challenges?

Rob (06:49): Believe it or not, I struggled with JavaScript a lot. I was doing the career path. I think I got up to about the seventh module and -

Alex (06:57): You felt quite comfortable with HTML and CSS, but when you got to JavaScript, that felt like something a bit different?

Rob (07:04): Yeah. HTML and CSS, I was good with and I felt I knew that, and I kind of pushed through the JavaScript. I got a good amount of it, but if you got anything deep, maps I was still struggling with, and reduce. And not that they're anything crazy, but just a little bit more complicated than your more simple methods. And I got to a point where I'm ... I was starting to apply for jobs even at that point. I may have even been a little past that. Maybe I was at module nine or something. I wound up doing the JS bootcamp. It was separate from the career path. I completed that and that helped. I got better, but I still got to a point where then I started applying for jobs. I failed a few interviews and it didn't go so well. And I said to myself, "What am I offering to someone? I can't even do some more complex JavaScript. What am I going to go there and do, CSS for them?" So I was like, "I have to at least get good at JavaScript." I want to say I was even dabbling in a little bit of React. I took a course on Udemy. I think his name is Jonas Schmedtmann. And I don't know what happened, but man, it clicked. I'm sure it was all my previous knowledge, the JavaScript bootcamp, the JavaScript I learned. I want to say that was actually after the cohort. So we did the cohort, or maybe I did them simultaneously. I'm not sure exactly on what the path was I took, but it just started to click. It was just all flying through. I think it was just a combination of multiple things and just a determination. I was like, "I have to learn this. I have to be able to offer someone something. And if I can't learn that, then ..."

Alex (08:33): Why is it, you think, that employers aren't as interested in someone who just knows HTML and CSS? I'm thinking there was one person I interviewed who found a way to position just those two skills to build email templates, where you can't run JavaScript, for example. And I guess I've met a few freelancers who found success building websites for local businesses and things like that. I'm not under any disillusion though. I do think that adding a new scale, like JavaScript, to your arsenal is beneficial. I'm just wondering what your experience was.

Rob (09:03): There's just less jobs. Even for JavaScript, even if you're great at JavaScript, if you're great at React, if you're great at databases, it's still to a point where it's so hard to get a job, especially for someone who has no experience. You need to be able to show your skills. I'd gotten a few interviews where, in general, the interviews where they have you do challenges to me is kind of silly, because I did bad on so many of them. And I specifically remember one where he'd give me a challenge, and this is when I was actually doing better with my JavaScript. I was doing challenges a lot. I was doing really well. So when he gave me the challenge and I saw it, I was like, "Oh, I could do this," but the problem was, it just took me some time. So he gives me about 10 minutes to do it. And I'm walking him through what I could do. And I'm thinking about it and I'm like, "Hmm, I don't know if I ..." I'm playing around with some stuff. And he gives me a few suggestions and stuff, and then he didn't want to keep going with it. He's like, "All right. If you finish it, just email me." He's like, "I could see that you know your way around a little bit," but 10 minutes after the call ended, I finished it and I had the whole thing done. It was a proof to me that, so what? I needed 20 minutes, not 10 minutes. Is that a problem?

Alex (10:11): That's an amazing point. You can achieve the same thing, it might just take you a little bit more time. And if you are on that trajectory, you're probably the same person who, after a relatively short period of time, two, three, maybe even six months, which is still not that long in the scheme of a career, you're on the path to becoming the same person who can do it in 10 minutes with some practice, to disqualify you because you can't speed run it under the pressure of an interview. The only thing I could imagine is you're very determined. You can work twice as hard as well, because you've got more to prove, sort of thing. I'm reluctant to say it, because when I was looking for a new job or my first junior developer job, I knew that I could trade on the fact that I would like work really hard. I was confident I would outwork some people, because I had a chip on my shoulder, I didn't have that degree, I was asking people to take a chance on me, but I do recognize that I was a younger person. I think I was 19, 20 at the time. I didn't have to go back home to a wife or a family. I'd like to hear from someone else what you think.

Rob (11:07): I want to say that didn't help me necessarily get my job, but it was definitely something that I was hoping to show and prove. I mean, I do have two kids. Here's the thing. Some people were like, "Well, don't say that, because then someone's going to think, oh, you have a family and you're not going to be able to give as much and stuff." And I said, "You know what? I disagree with that. I think what it shows is that I'm serious." Someone may just think that this is just a job to them, but that's regardless of whether you're young or old. I think it shows that I'm someone who's about my career and someone who's going to really care and be dependable and stuff like that. So that's what I wanted to get across. And I think I've proven ... I haven't missed a day. I've been here early and I leave late every day. So I think I've proven that tenfold, but it's just about everyone's situation, and you just don't know who you're dealing with and what they're looking for. I truly believe there was a couple times when I felt good about the interview and I felt good about it. And I would've just said, "You know what? Without threatening lawsuit or anything like that, I would love to be able to be a fly in the wall and just find out why," just because it's maybe they had someone in mind already. Maybe it was because I don't know what the reason is. It could be silly. It could be they wanted someone who's ... maybe they wanted a girl for the position because they needed girls. It's not something they can disclose, and I get it, but it would be nice to be like, "Oh, we needed a girl because we have all guys around here." Great. I'm all for diversity. It would just be nice to know it wasn't me that didn't get it, it's just that I didn't qualify.

Alex (12:40): If you are enjoying this episode of the Scrimba podcast, please do us at Scrimba a favor and share it with your friends on social media or in your community. Word of mouth is the single best way to support a podcast that you like, thank you in advance. Next week, I'm talking with Gregory Wittek, an experienced developer and engineering manager. We have a gripping chat about the states of the junior developer job market and how you, an aspiring junior web developer, can position yourself for success.

Gregory (13:11): A lot of people focus on building yet another portfolio project, but that sometimes makes absolutely no impact.

Alex (13:18): This chat was based on an article Gregory wrote called Why No One Hires Junior Developers Anymore. If that sort of title peaks your attention, make sure to subscribe to the Scrimba podcast as not to miss it. It's a sensational title, but the conversation was very measured, insightful, and actionable. You can look forward to that, but for now, back to the interview with Rob.

Did you ever get any sort of feedback from these interviews? Sometimes they'll be very direct and be like, "Hey Robbie, this is one thing we think you could improve," or something like that. Other times you just get a vibe. I think you got a vibe from that other interviewer, that they wanted someone faster. And that wasn't a good mutual fit, by the way, because if that's reflective of the interview where they were really pressuring you, that's the same thing they would expect if you did get the job. So if they extended you the offer in that case, you might have been thinking twice about it anyway. So did you get any sort of indication about what worked well and what you could have done differently?

Rob (14:11): Let's say I did eight interviews in six months of looking. I probably got feedback from about two of them. And one of them was okay feedback. The other one was a little more helpful. It was a little bit more of a what to do and what to do going forward and things you should say, things you shouldn't say, stuff like that. There was maybe one guy of all the interviews that gave me ... he did give me a challenge and he told to expand my thought process on how to solve stuff. Personally speaking, it wasn't necessarily JavaScript I think that he was looking for in that interview. So I think he was looking for someone who had object-oriented experience. And even the challenge he gave me was an object-oriented way to solve it. So that didn't really fit, because although I can do objects and I know objects and all that, it's not one of my main focuses. So he was just kind of hinting at that a lot. And when you're in your interview, don't say this and that, and they weren't big deals to me, but that's just it. The other thing is just because you get feedback telling you to do this and that doesn't mean that everybody else is going to feel the same way about that. People are telling me don't say that your wife's pregnant, but it's like, well, like I said, for some people, like the job I got, it was no worry to them. They were okay with it. They had no problem with it. And they did say to me that yeah, it means that you have the greatest motivator of them all, really. You just don't know. That's why a lot of times my wife would say to me, "Don't take it so hard." She's done a lot of interviewing and she's done a lot of interviews herself for her in her career. So she was like, "Just Rob, you never know what the reason is, so don't take it personally."

Alex (15:54): I think people listening are going to really enjoy how sure of yourself you are. When someone is a bit older in life changing to development, they sometimes look at social media and success stories and they're like, "Oh, it's always the 20 year old who got the job," but what you've highlighted is that your maturity and your experiences and your having a family and that responsibility, well, these are strengths as well. For you to take that risk so much later in life, I think that's a huge testament to how serious you are about proceeding in this industry. Do you think that helped you along the way?

Rob (16:25): Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. I can't tell you how many times that my experience helped. Yeah, for anyone who ever ... I don't care what the age is. I don't care if you're in your fifties trying to learn, use that experience you have, because you've learned a lot and you've been, I'm sure, in plenty of different situations. And I'm in my thirties, I'm 33, so I'm just about my mid thirties. I've had people say to me, "Wow, man. That's amazing that you did that. I don't know if I'd be able to do that." And I'm just like, eh, I don't think you realize the strength you have. I don't think you realize the strength that you possess already, being someone who ... let's be honest, by the time you're in your thirties, it's not everyone, but a lot of people you talk to, they've had how many different jobs already? Multiple different jobs and different industries, maybe different bosses. You've gained some life experience that just can't be taught.

Alex (17:18): I noticed when you were talking that it didn't seem like you had very much trouble getting job interviews. I mean eight is a modest amount, but still, it's all you needed, obviously. How did you end up succeeding in those interviews and getting in the room?

Rob (17:30): I'm not really sure. Maybe it was my past experience that people are like, "Oh, this guy's got a lot of experience. Let's just give him a shot." And some people have said that it's a lot, but I'll be honest with you, most of them were bad.

Alex (17:42): Okay.

Rob (17:43): Just not even looking for my language. "Oh, what languages do you know?" And it's like, "Oh, I know JavaScript and this." And, "Oh, well we're really looking for this." I'm like, "Did you read my resume? Did you read my LinkedIn profile? Anything? My application?" I mean, usually it's written on somewhere. So a lot of them were that.

Alex (18:03): That's a red flag. I don't like that. But you had a LinkedIn profile, I assume, and the resume. Did you have a portfolio or any side projects or anything like that might have helped you stand out? Or do you really think it was just your resume doing the work based on your experience?

Rob (18:18): Yeah, I mean I had ... I definitely know that they looked at my portfolio with this current job. They talked to me about a few things that I had on it. One mistake that I made and I would suggest to others is to build your portfolio out more. I do have a portfolio and it's got some good projects on it, but I really don't put enough time or effort into it. And it's something I want to redo. It's important. I can almost guarantee that there were times when people didn't give me interviews. Not that I have any knowledge of it, but just looking at my portfolio a few times, I was like, "This is just not up to par. It could be better."

Alex (18:48): I think it's one of those things that once you invest in it, you've got to ... so even when you have your first job, it makes a lot of sense to ... I could follow this advice, which I don't, by the way. I should lead a better example, I think, but it certainly is a good idea. Tell us a little bit about your current opportunity. How did you find it? What technology stack are they using? What did the interview process look like? What does the company do? I just want to learn everything, basically.

Rob (19:11): It's a marketing company called Did It. And the way it went was I started getting kind of desperate because I just needed to get something, a different job. My job was kind of ending. I needed to shift to something else. I did a whole bunch. I was filling out a ton of applications. I get an email or a call, one of those on a Monday at three o'clock. The person's like, "Oh, we're very interested." It was a local job, only about half an hour away from me. And they're like, "Can we set up an interview?" And I'm like, "Yeah, sure." And I'm like, "When?" And I'm like, "All right, maybe tomorrow we'll do an interview?" And the next day I had a funeral, actually. So I was like, "Let's do it Wednesday." And she was like, "Can we do it in an hour?" And I'm like, "You mean at four o'clock today?" I was like, "I guess so, sure." And she's like, "All right, let me just contact who will be your boss." This is the HR manager. She's like, "Let me contact who would be your boss if he's available." One of the big parts of the story was his wife is pregnant and was literally due any minute. So sure enough, we did the interview. This was for a marketing job where the main language was PHP. And I had taken a little WordPress course on Udemy and did a very small amount of PHP, but enough to ... once you know a language, they always said ... I always heard once you know one, it's a little easier to do others. So I got the general gist of it, but still I didn't know much. That being said, I did the interview and I was very honest, very honest about my skills. "Oh, what PHP do you know?" And I'm like, "Well, I did this course and this and that." And I explained it. Like I said, very honest with them. I didn't try to make it seem like I knew a lot or anything like that. I said, "But I am a hard worker and I know JavaScript and I'm sure a lot of it will transfer." So a lot of what I would be doing is PHP and WordPress. So I guess that kind of helped in a way. So yeah, so we did the interview and it went well. I mean, I think everybody felt good about it. So what happened was the next day his wife went into labor. So they wound up having the baby early Wednesday or something like that. So we were on a pause and they're like, "Well, we really liked you, but we just can't make a decision right now. It's just too quick. Your boss is going to come back in about two weeks." I think it was two weeks from that day. She's like, "Can we do an interview there?" And I was like, "Sure." My situation was rough, but it was like all right, I have to do this interview. The funny thing was, I wound up getting a job offer about a week and a half later, but I didn't really like the position. It was kind of I'd be doing some coding for a guy, but I'm doing a lot of routing for company, a guy I knew for a while and he knew I wanted to code. It would've been a nice portfolio piece down the road. So I wound up getting that interview and it was a decent job. It wasn't terrible, but I really wanted this job because it was just a web dev. It was a web developer job and it was just full ... there'd be a whole bunch of stuff. I could tell you right now, in the almost three weeks I've been here, I have touched WordPress, Shopify, mySQL or My SQL, whatever you call it. I've done a lot of PHP. I've built a whole database in PHP already. So I'm going to have my hands on a whole lot of technologies that I probably have never had before. So it's a good job. I mean, it's strange not really ... I haven't used JavaScript since I've been here, other than maybe my knowledge of how to use JavaScript. Overall, I mean it's been a great opportunity to learn new technologies.

Alex (22:38): Definitely. You said that things were getting a little bit desperate and then you also went on to be almost painfully honest during the interview, sort of being very forthright about not knowing PHP, but I think you handled it super well, sort of explaining it's something you can learn and you will learn and you can transfer your skills. Those two things, desperation and honesty, don't often go hand in hand.

Rob (23:00): Yeah. I just didn't want to get a job where I kind of made it seem like I knew so much. And then you get in there and it's not ... I didn't want to start off on a lie.

Alex (23:08): Yeah, I think that was brave, man. That was really cool. And I'm glad to hear it's paying off as well and you're having a good time. What sort of projects are you working on at the company?

Rob (23:15): I built almost a backend for a company that was getting Shopify data. They were having stuff go from [inaudible 00:23:24] to Google Sheets, and it's just not ideal and they wanted something a little more solid. And there's a big website being built, but it's going to still take a while. So we kind of built a temporary backend for them. It's security and stuff, and it's not just on a Google Sheet and all that. So it was a cool. I mean, I really, really enjoyed doing it. I has so much fun. I can say this to anybody doing this kind of work or wanting to get into the work, when you enjoy what you do, it's like not working. It's really not. When you come to work and enjoy what you do and have fun, I mean my days go so quickly.

Alex (24:00): Tell me, Rob, when you got the offer, did you and your wife celebrate? Because from the sounds of things, it was both exciting and relieving, I can imagine.

Rob (24:06): Well, right after the dance of excitement that I did, I mean my wife was as happy as me or more happy. I mean, she was so thrilled just to see me be on this path for a while and to kind of be at the end of it. It was definitely relief. And I felt it since then. I mean stress is one of those things you just don't realize how stressed you are. Now being able to do what I wanted to do is this feeling I've never really had. I don't think I ever pursued something that I wanted to do. I did open a company of mine back when I was in college and that was kind of fun, but it was just a lot of work and I was doing everything myself and when you're doing it and you're not getting paid, it's a different story. So to actually be paid to do something that I love is ...

Alex (24:51): Was that the property damage restoration one?

Rob (24:54): No, it was back in college called My Freebies. I actually sold it to someone, which was cool.

Alex (24:59): Very cool.

Rob (24:59): But it was a lot of work. It was a successful thing. And to be honest with you, I only sold part of it and was supposed to stay with it, but I got in there and it was just supposed to be ... they were going to change it into something completely different. So I didn't want to stay in it anymore. And my life was changing a little bit, anyway, I had met my wife and stuff.

Alex (25:17): But that's just one of the experiences that contributed to your sort of worldview and maturity and things like that, that helped you succeed today. You've been through it all, it sounds like. I mean, your journey is both unique, but also there are so many parts that I think people listening will find relatable. If you could go back to the beginning and offer yourself, and by extension, anybody listening your advice about learning to code and finding success as a junior developer, is there anything else you can offer?

Rob (25:41): I think that one thing I notice that happens a lot ... and people still contact me. I get messages from people ever since I wrote that I got hired and they'll message me and ask me these questions. And one thing I see that I think everybody makes a mistake with is putting timelines on stuff. Well, why do you think you got it in this time? And do you think it's okay for me to take this long? And I always tell people, I'm like, the first thing for you to do is just remove the timelines, stop thinking about how quickly I did it. Stop thinking how long it took this person. There was a guy not that long ago, maybe that was only doing it for two months. And I remember we were having some discussions about it and I'm like, "That is such an unrealistic timeline." Now maybe you can do it in two months, but don't focus on the two months, focus on you're going to be on a journey now, you're going to work hard, and you're going to get there when you get there. I got to a point where I was doing it full-time for a while. And then I got to a point where I had to go part-time. And I said to myself, "Okay, yeah, it's much easier to do this when it's full-time, but guess what? If I have to go part-time, it's not going to stop." And I started doing it part-time. Then I was worried about I might have to get to a point where I get a full-time job and then I do this when I can. And I said, well, guess what? I'm going to keep doing it when I can then and I'm going to get to where I need to be. You can't worry so much about the destination. You have to worry about just growing the way you need to grow and learning what you need to learn.

Alex (27:04): Couldn't have said it better myself. Rob, thank you so much for joining me on the Scrimba podcast.

Rob (27:08): Yeah, no problem. Thanks for having me.

Alex (27:09): That was Rob, a successful Scrimba student from New York. Thank you for listening. If you made it this far in the episode, you might want to subscribe for more helpful and uplifting episodes with recently hired juniors and industry experts alike. We tend to alternate between a recently successful, self-taught developer, like Rob, and a more experienced hiring manager, recruiter, or somebody else who's been in the industry a while working with juniors, such as Gregory, with whom I will speak next week and in the next episode. So this way you get to learn from both sides how to find success. Also remember to tweet me, your host, Alex Booker, and share what lessons you learned from the episode so I can find you personally for tuning in. My Twitter handle, along with Scrimba's, is in the show notes. See you next week.