How This Junior Developer Tripled Their Salary Within One Year of Getting Hired

How This Junior Developer Tripled Their Salary Within One Year of Getting Hired

๐ŸŽ™ About the episode

Meet Vikas Jyani ๐Ÿ‡ฎ๐Ÿ‡ณ! He studied fine arts before discovering coding and realizing that web development is what can combine his eye for design and interest in tech.

In this episode, you'll hear about Vikas's approach to learning and job hunting and why he thinks remote work might still not be optimal for a junior. He talks about life-changing advice he got from a senior developer when he saw Vikas was burning out, recognizing red flags in job offers, and, eventually, how he tripled his salary within a year from getting his first job!

You will also learn more about India. Specifically, its job market and education, differences between big and small cities, and why a hybrid approach to work, combining remote work and going to an office, might not work there.

๐Ÿ”— Connect with Vikas

โฐ Timestamps

  • How Vikas started coding after studying fine art and also discovered Scrimba (01:37)
  • Job opportunities vs. the population in India (05:00)
  • How Vikas got out of tutorial hell (07:33)
  • How Vikas decided to get into React (09:04)
  • Ad break: We did an episode with Bob Ziroll! Next week, an episode with Mike Chen! Also: how you can support us if you like what we're doing. (10:34)
  • Vikas's approach to applying for jobs (13:21)
  • How positive feedback from a hiring manager who couldn't hire him helped Vikas keep going (14:31)
  • Vikas even turned down an offer because he recognized shady practices! (16:15)
  • How Vikas got a job offer when he thought he failed a trial assignment (17:27)
  • A senior developer recognized Vikas was burning out and gave him life-changing advice (20:40)
  • As a junior, should you go for a remote or office job? (21:54)
  • Would a hybrid approach to working work out in India? (26:16)
  • How Vikas tripled his junior salary (27:18)

๐Ÿงฐ Resources Mentioned

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You can also Tweet Alex from Scrimba at @bookercodes and tell them what lessons you learned from the episode so they can thank you personally for tuning in ๐Ÿ™

๐Ÿ’ฌ Transcript

Vikas Jyani (00:00):
Yeah, I moved on, but I got the call. He actually didn't mention that I was hired. He just started like, we work like this, these are our clients and this is what we generally do. I asked, Am I in? He said, yes, because you have achieved more than we expected from you. So yeah, welcome to the company.

Alex Booker (00:18):
Hello and welcome to the Scrimba Podcast. On this weekly show, I speak of succes sful developers about their advice on learning to code and getting your first junior developer job. My name is Alex and today I'm joined by Vikas Jyani, a junior developer who just tripled their salary within one year of getting hired as a web developer. This is a really good example of landing then expanding. In other words, once you get your first junior developer job, more and more opportunities unlock themselves to you every year.

In this case, Vikas got an opportunity to start a new remote role where he was offered this impressive salary. It's really cool whenever any developer gets a free salary increase, especially a self taught one. After studying fine arts at university, Vikas decided to take the self taught route this time and taught himself how to code with some help from Scrimba. In this episode, you're going to learn exactly how he did it. We're also going to learn a bit about what it's like to study and find development work in India and discuss why Vikas kind of regrets working remotely as a junior developer. Kind of regrets. It's not all coding in your PJs and having baths at 3:00 PM. Anyway, you are listening to Scrimba Podcast. Let's get into it.

Vikas Jyani (01:37):
I was into tech stuff since the beginning and I used to play around with costume [inaudible 00:01:42] in Android and all, but I never thought I would be making my career in this field and into I was good into sketching and also I took graphics designing in 2017 and during that Corona outbreak I had a lot of time to think about where my life is going and ultimately, one day I decided to be a programmer because I've seen some posts and also read some blogs and I found it very cool and fascinating. So I decided to jump into programming but actually had no idea where do I need to start from. So I heard about Python and I get into Python programming and I started from that course, there course of University of Michigan. I learned for two to three months and then I decided that it is not the right field for me because I was not very good in maths and so I decided to let it pass and then my college started again.

So there was one year remaining for my college. After completing my college, I decided that yeah, I'm going to be a web developer and I started learning HTML. It barely took one month for HTML and CSS and right after that I was looking for a good JavaScript course. I find out about Scrimba and I joined it immediately and very quickly I get the hang of it and it was because the best experience I ever got in any platform because of the interactivity where you can listen to the audio and try your hands on right into that stem. That was kind of unique and excellent things. So I learned in Scrimba for one or 1.5 months and that's when I started going for interviews and all. That's when I decided to do programming.

Alex Booker (03:27):
Thank you so much for the kind words about Scrimba by the way, because for anybody who's listening and hasn't checked out Scrimba, there you go. You should absolutely check out the career path. But just to come back to your kind of story Vikas, you studied fine arts at college, arts is very creative, coding can be very creative. You levitated to front end development, which is a bit more design orientated compared to Python and backend stuff. I'm just curious, why did you choose to study fine arts and did that experience of lead you to development in any way?

Vikas Jyani (03:58):
I was into tech stuff and I was also good at sketching and all. So in web development I found the perfect blend between designing and programming. So that's when I decided I want to be a web developer and where I can satisfy both my needs.

Alex Booker (04:14):
Was it like a hard decision to choose what to study at college? Fine arts sounds like really exciting and interesting subject to study, but then I guess when you're going to college you're often thinking about the jobs you're going to get at the end of it, and I can only reflect on my anecdotal experience, but my friends and people I know who study things like arts, sometimes it's not so obvious what career to pursue afterwards.

Vikas Jyani (04:36):
This graphic designing course is good and there was no regrets of doing it, but actually it's always about what I'm going to make out of it eventually, and the career prospects in graphic designing were not very great, so that's the reason I decided to go with this part, so I can still be creative and get a little bit better overall income. So that is a reason.

Alex Booker (05:00):
Maybe this is a good opportunity to zoom out a little bit in this interview because I'd really love to learn a little bit about where in the world you are from and what the prospects for somebody who likes technology and design look like. Did you feel like there were lots of opportunities for you growing up and studying at school?

Vikas Jyani (05:18):
No, actually my father is a teacher, he's a government teacher. I tend to come from a lower middle class family, but even though the income was not very great, my father actually invested in our studies and never actually compromised in our studies. So there was no issues in college and schooling days. We did great, get great education from the best institutes we could afford and that career opportunity is kind of thin here in India because of the population issue. I think you might be aware of that and there is a lot of competition around the things. So we need to be the best to get and achieve things ultimately.

Alex Booker (05:57):
I was speaking with a developer in a Twitter space once from India who actually studied at university in India. He was talking about why so many Indian developers go the self-taught route and it's because for the best colleges or universities, honestly, there are just too many applications and so to get accepted into those colleges you have to be in the top 0.1% or something and obviously have to demonstrate your ability through testing and test scores, which doesn't suit every type of developer rights. So that sounds honestly really challenging and I guess I hadn't considered it, but it sounds like that applies to the job market as well. India's obviously had a booming population for a decade now every year India becomes a force to be reckoned with regards to technology because you produce so many amazing developers and in tech hubs like, [inaudible 00:06:47] there are some incredible companies starting as well. I feel like on one hand there's kind of exciting, but the real experience is that there's a lot of competition for these roles and that can be kind of intimidating?

Vikas Jyani (06:57):
Even though the population is high here, it doesn't mean that there is a lack of opportunities. Opportunities are always there for the hard working class and I actually never have to go through that college phase because I didn't do engineer and all, I had no plans for it and that person was right because the education in college and getting into engineering and all is going to be a bit costly here and getting into CS, computer science field is actually very difficult. You need to be actually in one person to get that seat in computer science. So that is another story about this market in India.

Alex Booker (07:33):
All of this combined man that you were in a position to teach yourself coding. I like the path you took doing courses at the University of Michigan studying Python before switching over to front-end development. I happen to know you did the front-end developer career path at Scrimba. How did you go about making sure that you were remembering the things you were learning, because I think a trap a lot of new developers fall into is that they sometimes waste more time on research than actually learning and coding. And sometimes when they get past that initial hurdle, they spend a lot of time like watching courses and content, but they're not necessarily becoming better, more proficient hireable developers because in order to do that you have to really build your own projects.

Vikas Jyani (08:21):
Actually I was into that category only. I was jumping into tutorials after tutorials and I was kind of stuck into tutorial health as well, until one day I watched a YouTube video of some Indian developer who was working in Microsoft and he mentioned in the video that you are not going to learn anything if you are just watching the videos because you need to get up and get some project based learning to actually grasp the concepts that you are watching. So that's when it clicked me and Scrimba was actually the kind of thing I was looking for. It perfectly matched with me and I changed my approach and that's when I actually started learning things and level myself up in web development.

Alex Booker (09:04):
I guess because you were doing the Front-end developer career path for Scrimba, we naturally lead you into React JS because it's a very hireable skill and for better or for worse, a lot of job ads are specifically for React developers. So we think it gives you a good chance of getting hired. Is that the case? You just kind of fell into React because of Scrimba and even though there are some trends in the job market, generally speaking, there are more React jobs in the world. There are sometimes specific areas where maybe there are more jobs with Ujs or Angular or something. So when you start to look for jobs you realize, oh, okay, I need to learn these new skills to become a competitive candidate. But what happened in your experience, did you find that React was a good skill to know in your area?

Vikas Jyani (09:48):
When I started my journey to web development, I was looking into hot topics and what is the technology that is being used in Indian market and React was actually the most defining skill then and still. So I knew I was going into React and I was on the right path and I couldn't find a better teacher than Bob Ziroll because I also tried one or two another other React courses and I find he's the best because I was getting the knowledge in the simplest way possible and there was a lot of rewriting involved, so he was actually literally forcing us to go back and repeat this. There was a lot of repeating stuff and that is what actually helped me grasp the concepts and cement it in my deeper deep memory.

Jan Arsenovic (10:34):
Hello, this is your producer speaking apart from being one of the Internet's favorite React teachers. Bob is also Scrimba's head of education and he was on the show recently. It was a really interesting episode and I'll be linking it in the show notes, but until then here's a trailer for it.

Bob Ziroll (10:51):
I get comments asking like, Hey, can you make a course about this and this and this? And I'm like, I don't know if you understand that you're talking about a three to four month endeavor. In the evenings, sitting in my wife's tiny, tiny walk-in closet, the only place I could get good sound. I recorded the original React course I think in 2018. It was really important to use the Scrimba platform to it's full potential, which later we kind of realized that I was only scratching the surface and people liked it. The way that we teach it now is everything is project based. People always say that you should learn with a project, but Scrimba is uniquely poised to make doing those projects really easy. Anything in this life that you have gotten good at, you've done it because you practiced. The easiest way to learn something new is to do it the hardest way possible, which is to actually do it.

Alex Booker (11:41):
Hey, it is Alex here coming to you from the future. We'll be right back with Vikas in just a minute, but first I wanted to remind you that this is a weekly podcast and one week I interview a newly hired developer like Vikas and then the other week I speak with a hiring manager or some other industry expert so you can learn from both sides. Next week I'm speaking with Mike Chen, who is currently a CTO at a Startup, but previously worked at companies. You've definitely heard of Yahoo, Airbnb and Google.

Mike Chen (12:10):
I went to university but I didn't study CS, I studied biochemistry. My intention was to go to medical school and I worked in clinical research for a little bit and I really didn't like it very much, so I decided not to go to medical school and not to make a huge expensive mistake, decided to self-teach. And back then in 2009, 2010, it was much harder to learn how to code. There weren't resources Scrimba, YouTube was not really for teaching, it was for entertainment. All I had were books.

Alex Booker (12:40):
Do you make sure you subscribe or check back weekly to have the latest episodes? And there was one more thing, right Jan?

Jan Arsenovic (12:46):
Oh yeah, we have to ask you for a favor. Basically word of mouth is the best way to support the show. So if you are enjoying it and if you're learning from it, we would be really thankful if you shared it with someone. Chances are you are learning to code or starting your developer career. Do you know anybody else who's doing the same? Well, they might benefit from listening to this podcast as well, so why not share it with them, be it on socials on this court or in person. A little bit of social proof goes a long way. Thank you. And now back to the interview with Vikas.

Alex Booker (13:21):
This is all amazing to hear. I kind of gathered for you started applying to jobs quite early in your journey. How long would you say you were coding and learning before you started to apply for jobs and when you started applying to jobs, what approach did you take?

Vikas Jyani (13:36):
So I started learning in first week of November.

Alex Booker (13:40):
November, 2021?

Vikas Jyani (13:42):
Yeah, sorry. It was first week of November. That's when I started learning HTML and CSS. Then right after that I did complete JavaScript and during the second week of January I was halfway through that React course, like 80% of the course was completed in screen by and I started applying for a job, not because I wanted to get a job, only because I wanted to become more confident when the actual interview happens so I could get the experience of giving interviews.

Alex Booker (14:10):
That's brave.

Vikas Jyani (14:11):
But I didn't know I would be able to land a job as as quickly as three months because I didn't have all the skills. But employers were seeing that person is hardworking, he's self taught, and maybe some chances gave must be given to him. And so that's when I was able to land a job within three months.

Alex Booker (14:31):
Let's talk about that a little bit. First of all, really brave to go and apply for jobs before you felt ready. I think it's scary, but I also agree that it's important you get that practice so when the job you really want comes around, you're not interviewing and learning for the first time, you've actually got a bit of practice and experience in the belt. But then let's talk about this idea of potential because tell me if I'm right Vikas, but it sounds like maybe you weren't quite a hundred percent ready. Even in the eyes of the interviewer, they were like, okay, maybe Vikas isn't a hundred percent ready, but because you had been so dedicated in hard working learning to code in quite a short period of time, they were like, Well, Vikas is a rocket ship basically. He's on a good trajectory, let's bring him on board and work together for a bit.

Vikas Jyani (15:18):
Yes. Actually one of the interviews that he didn't quite actually hire me, but he told me because you are one of the very few people that I interviewed in my life and actually the position was kind of high level and they were actually looking for a developer with at least one year of experience and it was not in his hands to hire me, but he said he was actually kind of impressed with me and said if it was in his hand he would definitely hire me. And he also told me that you are going to be a great developer one day, don't leave the path that you are right now and good luck for your future endeavor. He was kind of impressed with me.

Alex Booker (15:56):
How did it feel when you got that feedback?

Vikas Jyani (15:58):
I couldn't believe it. I had this friend with me actually I was staying at my friends because I couldn't study and concentrate actually, so at my home. So I went to some other city where my friend was staying and I was staying with him for the past one month.

Alex Booker (16:15):
And then you went on to interview another job?

Vikas Jyani (16:18):
And when I got that email from the HR that congratulations because you have been shortlisted, I was so happy and I couldn't believe myself that I was able to track a job, but it actually happened. I was very happy we went out. I gave him treat for that and yeah, that was a wonderful memory. I couldn't join because I didn't know the shady practice behind the scenes. There was a bond involved and that two was of two years, so that was a no-go for me. So I was hesitant and I didn't take it because two years is a lot of time and I could easily be exploited. So I started looking at other opportunities.

Alex Booker (16:57):
Did I understand that right Vikas, they wanted you to sign a two year contract. So you would have to work for them for two years and you couldn't leave unless maybe there was a penalty or something.

Vikas Jyani (17:07):
Yeah. And that penalty was quite hefty as well. So it was definitely a no-go from me. I would rather be jobless than working for a company like that.

Alex Booker (17:17):
But that must have been a difficult sort of equation because it sounds like you were ready to start working as a developer. You had this opportunity in front of you, but you just weren't prepared to make that compromise basically.

Vikas Jyani (17:27):
No, I would never let anyone exploit me no matter the circumstances. So that actually was not a very hard decision for me. And then I moved ahead and I started giving interviews and there was this another employer who see the potential in me and we had a phone call and even in that phone call, he was kind of interested in me and he offered me to work for him for three days and then he was going to decide whether or not I was a good fit for the company. So I started working for them. I worked for three days and I was given a task to learn fire base and implement some of its concepts in a project. The project was quite basic, but there was a lot of new learning because I haven't touched fire base before, so I did give my best and I couldn't complete the project in three days.

I was there 80 to 90%, but I couldn't get the a hundred percent results out of it. And the last day was Friday, that was the third day. So I was quite disappointed with me because I knew that I am not going to make it because I couldn't complete that task that was given to me. So I let it go and the weekend pass by and one Monday I got a call at around 10:00 AM from that employer and I was in some other city because I never actually thought I was going to get a call back from him again.

Alex Booker (18:47):
You moved on?

Vikas Jyani (18:48):
Yeah, I moved on, but I got the call, I got the call from him and I was surprised and he started going through the company cultures and telling me how this company works and what are the things we do. He actually didn't quite mention that I was hired. He just started, we work like this and this is how we work and these are our clients and this is what we generally do. So I kind of get the idea, but I was still skeptical about it, so I asked, am I in? He said, yes, is because you are in. But I said I couldn't do that task that was given to me. He said, We actually expected words, but you have achieved more than we expected from you. So yeah, welcome to the company. And that was the best moment in my life because it was my first job in my life. So that was great.

Alex Booker (19:39):
Oh my god, that's amazing. I mean, learning number one, never count yourself out. I think it's so easy to think you failed and judge your own performance, but you're not qualified to judge your own performance. That's their job. So you can only do your best and trust, and I get it. Sometimes you feel bad about a test or an interview and you're pretty sure you've bombed it, but this experience just shows that you can never be sure.

And yeah, the other really big learning there I think is that some job interviews, some coding tasks, whether it's in India or the west, they're designed to push you to the limits of your knowledge and they're designed a little bit to put you under pressure. Maybe they were just literally looking for someone who could do 80% as it sounds they were when they told you we were expecting worse. We've been trying to schedule this interview for a long time due to various situations to do a travel and stuff. But since we actually connected, you've actually gone on to get another job. You got an opportunity to join a different company about five months later. How did the new job opportunity come about and what can you tell us about it Vikas?

Vikas Jyani (20:40):
When I got into the first company where I was actually working, I was under a lot of pressure because I was just in front-end development for three months and that task involved backend concepts as well. So I was learning no JS express MongoDB as well as advanced React topics that I was not aware of. So one of my seniors has seen the burnout in me and he suggest to me, because you are burning out and that is not going to end very good for you. So I suggest you start looking for opportunity front-end only, and when you are confident in that sector for one to two years you can also learn backend and get full stack. But before that I think you need to learn and get better at front-end only. So that's when I decided to take that route and I started applying for jobs.

Alex Booker (21:29):
Interesting. That's very good advice.

Vikas Jyani (21:34):
Yeah, after that I started looking for opportunities and I got another role as a React native developer. It has been like three, four months since I've been working here and the work culture is great. I have received remote opportunity. Yeah, so far so good.

Alex Booker (21:47):
So the first job you got, did you have to be in the office to do that one, but this new job you get to do remotely? Is that right?

Vikas Jyani (21:54):
No, actually both were remote. First one was fully remote and there was no commitment from my side or their side to come and join office anytime. But the second company was going to ask me to join office after one to two months, but then they decided I was working quite well and things are flexible, so they never forced me to come join an office and it was quite good. It's working well right now. I was able to complete the tasks from home only and it is going smoothly, so it's cool from their side as well.

Alex Booker (22:22):
Vikas, it's terribly mind if I ask how old you are?

Vikas Jyani (22:25):
Right now I'm 26 years old.

Alex Booker (22:27):
It's remarkable because you're part of a generation, I think you might have done some photography and stuff before, but as far as graduating and going into an office job and stuff, this is your first experience and it's all completely remote and working from home and just a few years ago before the pandemic, that never would've been the case probably. How do you feel about it? Is it strange? Do you think you're missing out on anything from not being in the office maybe?

Vikas Jyani (22:52):
Yeah, I kind of get that feeling sometimes to actually go out and get office job and get the feeling of office because I've been watching some YouTube series, TV shows that actually revolves around office culture and once in my lifetime.

Alex Booker (23:07):
Like suits in the office and stuff. What we talking about?

Vikas Jyani (23:12):
Yeah, actually there was TV series in India, quite popular that it's name is Cubicle actually that office Cubicle. And it revolves around a guy who works in ANC and got his first job recently and how excited he was about his first job and how he's going to in spend his first salary and all and how mature he gets with time. And yeah, actually it's quite a good story and that's what encourages me to one day go and live office life. So that's what I'm going to do in next few years.

Alex Booker (23:44):
I think that's a good timeline because on YouTube sometimes I watch day in the life of a software developer videos if you come across those?

Vikas Jyani (23:51):
Yeah, I've watch a lot mostly and in bigger companies like Google, Microsoft and Amazon.

Alex Booker (23:57):
Yeah, exactly. I saw one about this intern at Facebook. No, it was Google, sorry. And Google have a campus and you have to get a bus to go there and there were a bunch of interns on the bus, but when he gets to the office even today it's like empty. It's like a ghost town. So I think maybe it's a few years until people really get back into the offices and stuff.

Vikas Jyani (24:15):
Yeah, actually what I think is I should have joined the office job instead of remote job because you get to learn a lot from all the other developers around you and a work from home setting. You need to go especially and go text some senior and after 5 to 10 minutes he gets back to UN and there is a lack of communication that I'm feeling. So what I would do if I get my first job again is I would go and join office for one to two years. So get all the experience that I can because it is a very crucial for a fresher to get the office experience first before going to get the remote opportunity.

Alex Booker (24:50):
I think that's really great advice and I think it's especially great coming from you Vikas, you obviously can benefit from working from home, but you can also identify where maybe some of the gaps are in places where you could be maybe learning from your peers and seniors in person. I think personally I'm at a stage in my career where working asynchronously suits me because I've built my skills and now I can just focus on the tasks and the work and we check in when it's necessary. But my first two or three years was a hundred percent in the office. And I have to say that's when I was a junior developer and there was so many times when I would be sitting at a desk and then opposite me, a senior developer would be talking to another senior developer and I could just observe and listen and maybe join the conversation.

But today I would never get that chance because they would just schedule a zoom meeting and it's impossible to be a fly on the wall. And even things like lunchtime oftentimes would have a lunch table and we would be talking about not always a coding concept, but I just remember learning random things that made me a better programmer and a better technologist. We were talking about iPhones and why you can't change the time on your iPhone anymore and it's to do with encryption and timestamps and all these things. Anyway, just two random memories, but I think I see what you're saying completely.

Vikas Jyani (26:06):
Yeah, I kind of feel that I could be a lot better developer in that timeframe that I've been working if I was working from an office, but it's okay. I'm coping with it.

Alex Booker (26:16):
What do you think about a hybrid approach? Do you think a situation where you work from home four days and work in the office, two days would be the best of both worlds for a junior developer?

Vikas Jyani (26:25):
In India, I would say hybrid model is not a very good option. It is just my opinion, but there are some cities where that traffic is really, really bad. You get to wait around one to two hours for just to complete a instance of eight to 10 kilometers. But if you are working from home, it's fine. You get to save the commute and living expenses and all. But if there is this hybrid model, no matter you are working four days from home or two days from office, but you are going to be living in that city only, so the living coasts are going to be in get included. So not a very successful model in my opinion. Either it should be office or either it should be fully remote. Most of the people are from small cities and the office are located in prime or bigger cities only. So that is one of the main reason that people want to either work from home or work from office.

Alex Booker (27:18):
We've almost allow time Vikas unfortunately. But I did want to draw attention to one thing, which is that when you posted in Discord about your new job, and by the way, for anyone listening, there's Scrimba Discord community where people post when they get jobs and get hired and things like That's. Vikas you posted about your first job, but you also posted about your promotion and you mentioned that you managed to triple your current salary. Can you just talk a little bit about that, what you expecting to make such a big jump in salary so early and yeah, what's your observation there? Why did you manage to increase your salary like that?

Vikas Jyani (27:51):
Actually, I didn't expect that ever in my lifetime that I would get double or two salary because even though I was watching these YouTube videos where people were getting 500% hike, 600, even 800% hikes, I never myself thought that I would be able to get it. But one day when I was in on a call with some employer, and he also kind of got fascinated because he was going through his company ethics and how this company works, and I suggested some ideas. I throw in some ideas from my side and the key kind of flagged it that this person is going to be very important asset in our company and he didn't even ask my previous salary. He just offered me the salary and it turns out to be three times my current salary.

Alex Booker (28:36):
Oh my God, That must have been an amazing feeling. All right. Well, because it's been an absolute pleasure to speak of you today, thank you so much for joining me on the Scrimba Podcast.

Vikas Jyani (28:46):
You too, Alex. I was trying for the past three, four months to come and talk to you on this Scrimba Podcast and eventually I'm here and I'm very happy about it.

Jan Arsenovic (28:58):
That was Vikas. Check out the show notes for the ways to connect with them like on LinkedIn or on Scrimbas Discord server. By the way, on his LinkedIn, you will find both his CV and his portfolio, so that could be interesting to check out. If you made it this far. Why not subscribe or if you're feeling extra supportive. You can also leave us a rating or a review on Spotify or Apple Podcasts or wherever you're listening to this. If there's a way to leave a rating or a review, please consider doing it. It really helps. The show is hosted by Alex Booker, with whom you can connect on Twitter. His Twitter handle is also in the show notes and produced by me. I'm Jan Arsenovic, and we'll be here again next Tuesday when the guest of the Scrimba podcast will be Mike Chen. See you next week.