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Meet Ansub Khan 🇮🇳! Ansub has always been drawn to front-end development, but he took a couple of detours: he studied computer science and tried to learn C, C++, Java, and Python. In the end, he got a job by creating a website for a self-sustaining AI, while chatting to his now CEO about robots and quantum mechanics.
In this episode, you'll learn how to know when to go back to the basics of what you're learning, why rushing to get a job isn't always a good idea, and how a sprinkle of stoic philosophy can help you on your journey. Ansub shares details of his pretty unconventional job interview, as well as his approach to figuring out which jobs to apply to. He also talks about all of his failed job applications and what he learned from them.
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Alex Booker (00:01):
Hello, and welcome to the Scrimba Podcast. On this weekly show, I speak of successful devs about their advice on learning to code, and getting your first junior dev job. I'm Alex, and today, I'm joined by Ansub who just got their first junior developer job. Ansub studied computer science, but was always drawn to front end developments. That's when he came across Scrimba, and truly became job ready. Me and Ansub definitely vibed, and had a lot of fun talking about his approach to studying and getting his first junior developer role. We spoke about why rushing to get a job isn't always a good idea no matter what you might read about crazy stories of people getting jobs in just a few months. We also spoke about how a sprinkle of stoic philosophy can help you on your journey. I really can't wait. Let's get into it.
Ansub Khan (00:53):
So, after the lockdown actually started, I looked into Python and data analysis. I really liked the idea of visualization of data, but I also dropped that idea last year because I actually didn't like it that much. I actually got a job into data analytics before, but I didn't go there because I really didn't like data analysis at that time. Then I actually moved on to [inaudible 00:01:58] development, did it for like 20 days. I dropped that idea. Then I just came back to web development. I was like, "This is something I really like." Beside this, I also do a lot of designing. I have done a lot of designing for social media and stuff. So, designing and making that website come into a reality by development. What else do I actually need it?
Alex Booker (02:19):
Ansub Khan (02:29):
Exactly. I can't even imagine my life right now, switching it to another career because this is something which actually motivates me when I wake up.
Alex Booker (02:37):
Did you graduate from your computer science course? How long ago was that?
Ansub Khan (02:40):
I actually graduated last year in August. And after that, I started learning web development. I bought some courses from Udemy, but for a big nerd, even for me, it is quite overwhelming. I know computers, I know how they actually work, but for me seeing so many tabs at different places, was quite actually overwhelming. Then I came across Scrimba on Twitter, thanks to the Twitter community. Tech community of Twitter is the best one. I saw someone who was talking about Scrimba and they were actually telling it how I actually switched from Udemy to Scrimba. So I was like, "Why not just give it a shot?" That's how my Scrimba journey started.
Alex Booker (03:17):
That's wicked. That's really cool to hear. Yeah. I guess we do things a little bit differently at Scrimba. I suppose it's like the career path that lays everything out in an order that's easy to understand. And then there's the interactivity of the modules, isn't there? Were you would type of learner who, as you were watching the course, you would like pause the [inaudible 00:03:37] and start editing the code yourself, or did you just kind of blitz [inaudible 00:03:41]?
Ansub Khan (03:40):
I was in such a hurry in learning everything, and I actually messed it up a lot of times in the different interviews. But when I was just learning in the Scrimba, I used to pause the video, and do it by myself and then coming back to the video because I didn't have no idea that what we even have to do over there.
Alex Booker (03:57):
It's one of those things where like sometimes to go fast, you have to go slow, if that makes sense.
Ansub Khan (04:02):
Exactly. Because what happened with me is I actually got an offer because I used to write blog post on web development. I was actually learning from Scrimba, and I used to make those learning, whatever I just learned from internet, like in a week or so, I used to make a blog out of it. So I was writing blogs on Hashnote, dev.to, and there was a company who actually came to my LinkedIn and they were like, "Okay, we can actually hire you as a CSS content writer, technical content writer." I got really excited for it. I was like, okay. I really like to do CSS, and I can just do well in it. And I completely failed during the interview because I literally had no idea about the flex and the grid, and they were asking about that stuff. So, that's what happens when you are just hurrying into the studies.
So after that, in November, I actually stopped coding for like two weeks because I was just in such depression. I was like, if I can't even get a job into technical content writing, how can I become a front end engineer? But then, some friends of mine, they motivated me. I actually talked to some people on Twitter. They actually motivated me, and Scrimba community [inaudible 00:05:11] is one of the best communities. They also helped me when I was stuck in places. I actually started again with the basics. And that's how I actually got the job in March.
Alex Booker (05:22):
What kind of advice did your friends and the community offer you when you were like in that head space?
Ansub Khan (05:27):
That advice actually really hit me because my perspective of learning was okay, let's just learn whatever you can learn in a day, just give your six hours, seven hours, and just move on to new things. But your brain actually doesn't work like that. It actually needs some time to reevaluate the things that you are actually learning.
Alex Booker (06:36):
Your friend sounds like a very wise person.
Ansub Khan (06:38):
Alex Booker (06:40):
I made the exact same mistakes as you, by the way, I distinctly remember building a little front end app. And all I wanted to do was like put an icon, like a magnifying glass, inside of a text box for like a search field. And I was there just trying to bully it into place. And I just didn't have the foundational knowledge to make it work. I was so frustrated. And then I went back to the basics, and I was like, "Right. Maybe I don't know CSS."
Ansub Khan (07:06):
Alex Booker (07:56):
Ansub Khan (08:27):
So, the basics are actually very important. If someone is going to say, "Okay, I know React, I know different libraries, but I don't know the basics," they're not going to be working out properly in the industry. When I actually started learning the Chakra UI, they gave me like one week. I am actually working directly with the CEO of the company because me and him, we both love doing designing and stuff. And he had told me that, "Okay, we are going to be using Chakra UI for our website." And I said, "I have no idea about Chakra UI." He said, "You know the basic CSS, and you can just look into it. And it is going to be looking very overwhelming at first, but you will get the hang of it." And I said, "Okay, let's just look into it." And it was completely CSS based. It was completely Flexbox and devs. And that's how you are actually building on it. So, if someone who don't know the basic CSS, they're going to be like, "Okay, what is flex? What is padding? What is margin?" And they're going to be confused with that.
Alex Booker (10:20):
And who knows, every now and again, you encounter something [inaudible 00:10:24], in this case, Chakra UI just can't do. It's like a hiccup. And like, it doesn't quite work how you expect.
Ansub Khan (10:28):
Exactly. This actually happened with us, and we actually wanted to design some custom component, which is going to come into the website later on. And Chakra UI was not able to do that thing. And we had to go back to the basic [inaudible 00:10:43] for that.
Alex Booker (10:44):
If you are enjoying this episode of the Scrimba Podcast, please do [inaudible 00:10:49] Scrimba a favor and share this episode with your friends on social media, like on Twitter maybe, or in your community, like on Discord. Really, word of mouth is the single best way to support this podcast. So thank you in advance. If you haven't already, it would be awesome if you gave the Scrimba Podcast a rating on either the Apple podcast app, or Spotify as well. Back to the interview with Ansub.
It's interesting because you studied computer science where you tend to learn things like data structures and algorithms. You kind of said earlier, something like you know understand how computers work and bear in mind. A lot of people who study on Scrimba, or teach themselves how to code front end websites, they don't have that university background. They're sometimes left wondering if they're missing some fundamental knowledge. So, you think it's important to learn CSS before learning things like Chakra UI. How do you feel about learning sort of the fundamentals of computing before trying to build front end websites? Is that the same comparison, or is it totally different?
Ansub Khan (11:49):
It is completely different because in web development, everything that we are actually doing is based on the browser. Browser is actually acting like a brain for us, so we don't need to know how computers are working, how RAMs are actually working. At some places, people can say, "Okay, we should know how to manage stuff. How can we actually manage the storage? How can we actually increase the website speed?" But that everything is actually dependent on the browser, not the computer.
Alex Booker (12:14):
But what's about things like data structures and algorithms?
Ansub Khan (12:17):
Okay. So, this is the topic which I completely hated, and never even got good marks in data structures because I actually didn't like C and C++, and they were actually teaching me data structure based on C++, and I didn't like both of those languages. It was very hard for me, but there was no use of it in the front end development. Never in my entire career, which is of one months only, I actually see that I actually have to use data structure somewhere.
Alex Booker (12:44):
There's still time, I guess.
Ansub Khan (12:45):
Alex Booker (13:06):
Ansub Khan (13:16):
It is both, I would say because my company hired me as a front end engineer, plus a [inaudible 00:13:22] designer. I am actually designing the whole landing page layout, looking into how to place things, new designs, completely new UI. And now, I also have to develop that exact same thing that I have actually designed. So, I have to do the designing as well as the development. I have full creativity to do whatever I want to do.
Alex Booker (13:41):
That's really impressive, Ansub.
Ansub Khan (13:43):
When I went for the interview process, CEO told me that we are actually looking for people who can actually design, and who can actually develop that design because it is going to unlock the creativity. Because usually, what actually happens is design is going to design some other stuff, but developer doesn't like that type of design. He actually wants some changes into the designs, but they are actually not working out well for him. And he has to do it no matter how... He can just cry about the design, but in the end, he actually has to develop that design. So, he was like, "You just design, and uses develop it. So, we are just giving you the full power."
Alex Booker (14:17):
That's a story that comes up quite often. Like a lot of designers, they turn into developers as well, because they... I'm just telling you the sort of flip side of the argument. They get frustrated because their designs don't come to life how they imagined. And you did a great job explaining how the developer feels, because if the designers' really ambitious, they have no choice but to cry, or do it right. And being able to do both is awesome. I sort of wanted to get your take on what you think it means to think like a programmer, just that as front end developers or engineers, we don't often have to worry about implementing our own data structures, or necessarily implementing algorithms as such. Of course, a series of instructions is an algorithm, right? And so, to some extent, you are always creating algorithms. But we don't think about things like the [inaudible 00:15:03] and things, like it doesn't come up as much.
And yet, I've often found that by learning those things, like how to implement a bubble sort, and how it compares to a quick sort, and various other data structures and algorithms that work on them, every now and again, you're going to end up with like a set of data that needs manipulating in some way where you're dealing with a user input that needs to be mapped or something like that. And now you need to start thinking about kind of creating an algorithm. And I'm just wondering if you think learning DSAs in that way helped you think like a programmer.
Ansub Khan (15:32):
I actually want to learn DSA. It is not like I'm just abandoning the idea of DSA, I actually want to learn DSA. But the problem is that what actually we, in the beginning, think is that for a junior role, or for a starting entry level job, we actually think, okay, we actually need to learn whole web development. And apart from the web development, we also have to go towards the data structure as well. We have to learn the algorithms, we have to do bubbling, sorting, and stuff like that. But that is actually not required for us. We just have to get a job. And we have ample amount of time where we can just take a time out of the whole [inaudible 00:16:08] that we have, and we can just focus on those areas as well. And afterwards, when you have a certain level of experience, obviously, if you want to switch a job to another company, or you want to get a better job, they can actually help you because a lot of major companies actually ask for DSA in the end.
Alex Booker (16:25):
Let's segue into your current opportunity. First of all, let me ask, when did you decide to start applying for jobs? Did you just wake up one morning and were like, "Yeah, I'm ready," or was it something that kind of crept up on you?
Ansub Khan (16:37):
So, during the time of December or January, I had the idea, okay, I know which company can have a potential that can actually hire me. Like they can actually see my potential, and they can basically hire me. So, when I applied for this job, and I knew since the beginning that, okay, even if I'm not getting the job, I am getting into the interview. And there were some jobs where I went to the interview, and in just one minute, I actually knew, okay, this job is completely not for me, and they're not going to be selecting me.
Alex Booker (17:56):
Wait, wait, wait, how did you know you'd get the interview? Like, what was your thinking there?
Ansub Khan (18:00):
So basically, when I used to see the job portals, for example, they had no experience, first of all. I used to don't apply for the jobs, which actually have two to three years of experience. But some people actually told me that you can also apply in those jobs as well, because usually, they're just shoving things over there. For example, I actually saw Amazon internship offer. They actually said three years plus of experience, and they were actually hiring for a internship.
Alex Booker (18:27):
Ansub Khan (18:28):
So he said, "Okay, I really like the design and the font combination that you're using, that's why I'm talking to you right now."
Alex Booker (19:22):
That's wicked. And so, how did you come across this job exactly? Like, were you on LinkedIn, Indeed, some kind of job board?
Ansub Khan (19:28):
I looked into job at AngelList. AngelList is a place where startups hire people. This is also a startup.
Alex Booker (19:36):
Ansub Khan (19:37):
And I actually applied to like 300+ jobs. I think I actually made it to like eight or nine interviews. And in the last interview, I actually got the job.
Alex Booker (19:47):
Oh man, that's awesome. I love these stories. Like it's just a weird wave in numbers fall. Some people get their job on the first interview because they waited and really just honed in and sniped that perfect opportunity for them. Other people play the numbers game, and yeah, maybe it's the last one that ends up being successful. That must have been an awesome feeling.
Ansub Khan (20:08):
I actually used to feel very bad at the beginning. I used to see people on Twitter and LinkedIn, they are just getting hired, and I am the one who is actually not getting hired at this point. And then I actually realized this is a part of [inaudible 00:20:20]. Like right, because in the end, people have different circumstances, they're living in a different environment, they have different type of brain, and they are maybe learning more than you are. People basically, are different, and we all know it. And different people are actually getting faced with different types of problem in their life. So, we can't even compare ourself to others at this point. The only comparison I can actually do of myself is just me being someone who was actually in March, or who was in January, or who was in December. I can just compare myself to the past me, and then only I can actually see the improvement.
For example, if I'm going to be seeing myself when I was actually just getting started with the HTML where I don't even know how to write the HTML tags, and how to write the headings, and how to write the paragraph. And here I am, and I actually got the job of front end engineer. So, the only comparison I can just make is from the past of mine.
Alex Booker (21:15):
Your friend was wise and it sounds like you're wise as well, Ansub. I think that's absolutely the right way to look at it.
Ansub Khan (21:22):
I actually read a lot of stoic philosophy, so that is where all of this is coming from.
Alex Booker (21:27):
It did sound very stoic, only worry about what you can control. It's true that success stories can be inspiring, but they only come to the surface because they're exceptional. Like if everybody had a success story, they wouldn't be so special. So, when somebody gets a job in a record time, it kind of floats to the surface of social media. But for the tens or hundreds of more typical cases where people take many months, or maybe they... You never hear stories about the people who give up, right? This is survivorship bias in a nutshell. It's very important to keep that in mind while you're browsing social media, or even listening to the Scrimba Podcast. I try and do a good job of being explicit about it. And the nice thing about podcast is that there's a lot of room for nuance.
Ansub Khan (22:08):
Exactly. That is why I actually like this podcast because it varies so much. There are people who are just getting hired and they are doing their own interview. And there are people, like I was actually listening to their Microsoft interview-
Alex Booker (22:18):
With Scott Hanselman?
Ansub Khan (22:19):
I think so. He actually had like 30 years of experience, and it is such a good thing to just learn from different types of people, like people who are actually basically in the industry for like 30 years, and there is someone who has just joined for like 20 or 30 days. It is exciting.
Alex Booker (22:36):
Was it always that you wanted to work at a startup, or did this just happen kind of serendipitously?
Ansub Khan (22:41):
I actually wanted to always work for a startup because basically, the thing with the startup is like, you are actually working with a multiple heads. You have so many things to do. And you can literally learn so many things. Like, for example, when I actually joined a startup, I had no idea about Figma. Like I knew Figma. I actually designed a lot of things on Figma, but I actually didn't know that you can do so many things with Figma. Like for example, prototyping, making components, making color themes, and stuff like that. Like there are so many things that you can do with Figma, and I had no idea about it. And same is with the development part as well. I learned about [inaudible 00:23:16], I learned about [inaudible 00:23:18], I learned about Chakra UI. And then the company's also working at different external applications like Strappy, Ghost, for newsletter and stuff.
So, learning is a lot. For example, when I was just learning, watching tutorials and stuff, it was completely... I would say I was learning like 10% of what I am actually learning right now. And what I believe is that this thing actually can vary if you are just working for some big companies, because they are actually going to be making you focus on one specific work. You cannot have a open-mindedness in that sense. Whereas, in a startup you can actually give them ideas. For example, I am working as a front end engineer, but I also give ideas about the growth of the company as well. And I'm just active on their Reddit. And I'm just trying to find people who can actually test this product that they are actually building.
Alex Booker (24:07):
You get to be a big cog in a small wheel, I guess, is the way of saying it and actually make a big difference. That's super exciting.
Ansub Khan (24:15):
We also have a meeting, like we actually conclude everything on Friday that whatever progress that the company is actually making. Everyone is so motivating, and they're just giving their own ideas. Even as a newcomer, even as a entry level person, they actually listen to my idea, and they're going to be like, "Okay, this is a very cool idea, and we didn't know about it, and we are going to be implementing it."
Alex Booker (24:36):
Have you practiced like an elevator pitch for the company yet? Tell us as quickly as you can, like what they do, and what the product is.
Ansub Khan (24:42):
So, the company is actually [inaudible 00:24:45], they are building a automation tool, which can actually automate literally anything that you want. It works on browser, it works on Mac, it works on Linux, it works on Windows, and you can make some automation that can actually make your life easier. For example, when I actually joined the company, I actually built a bot, which copies every Twitter thread. Like for example, I want to save a Twitter thread, I'm going to be opening that Twitter thread, and the company has a layout, a command bot type style that you can just type there, "I want to save this thing to Google Keep," so, I made that automation. And with just one enter, it is going to be copying everything to your Google Keep in just one second. And if I'm going to be doing it manually, it is going to be like three or four minutes. Possibilities are endless.
Alex Booker (25:29):
You could be a salesperson too, that an awesome pitch. Just in terms of like the interview process itself, like once you connected with this company through AngelList, what did the interview process look like?
Ansub Khan (25:40):
Whenever I actually tell people about the interview process, they always say, "Are you interviewing for NASA, or making rockets?" Or something like that. Because my CEO actually has a bachelor's in physics, and he actually has built the Hyperloop India. He was the ex founder of Hyperloop India. His idea was actually selected by SpaceX. So, the questions actually started with my interest. Like he actually asked me about my interest. I actually told him, "I really like to talk about space. I really like to talk about technology and stuff." And that's how the conversation actually begins. His questions were more like how the universe... What do you think like the universe is actually there? Why God actually thought, or some entity actually thought that universe should be actually there. He actually talked about why expansion of the universe is actually happening. He actually made me question my own existence to be honest with you. Like the questions were like that.
The interview actually had to be 30 minutes because it was a screening interview, but we actually talked for like two and a half hour. And we were talking about universe, we were talking about robots, we were talking about artificial intelligence. He wanted to test my critical thinking. We were actually talking about the quantum entanglement, it is basically a topic of quantum mechanics. He was actually telling me that, "Why do you think quantum entanglement is actually there?" And I was like, "How do I know that it is actually there? It is just there, and we don't know about it." Then he actually gave me a scenario. He said, "Okay, let's say you are building a game and you want to put this quantum entanglement in that game. So, why do you think you want to put this thing into the game?" It just blows my mind away. I was just saying gibberish. I don't know what actually said, but yeah.
Alex Booker (27:19):
I always think it's a good sign if you have an interview of any kind scheduled, and it kind of goes over time, and they're okay with it. I think that once you cross that territory, you're pretty much guaranteed a next round of the interview. That's a bold thing to say, I know, but I think it's a really positive indicator.
Ansub Khan (27:35):
I actually never thought about it. I actually got an assignment with this talk only. That's why we were actually talking. We were talking about the future of AI, and I told him that if we want AI in this world for the future, we have to make AIs which can actually work for human, but they can also make profit for themself. And he actually really like that idea. So he said, "You just have to implement this idea, so how you are going to be implementing it." So, I gave him the example of NFTs. NFTs are so popular these days. I told him that, "Okay, there will be a artificial intelligence who is going to be making a NFT for the humans. It is going to be limited edition NFT only. He's going to be selling those NFTs in the auction to the humans. And the money that the bot is going to generate, the artificial intelligence is going to generate, is going to go towards the maintenance of that artificial intelligence." Because in the end, AI is just basically code, and it needs improvement.
So, for example, there can be a website where artificial intelligence can just put a issue request just like in the get up, and it can just say, "Can someone just fix this [inaudible 00:28:38] for me?" And I can just give them 0.5 [inaudible 00:28:39] or 0.6 [inaudible 00:28:41]. So, that was just communicating the whole idea of how humans and artificial intelligence can actually interact. So, he said, "Okay, this is your assignment. Users have to build on this." He actually wanted me to code the front end of it, not the working. Of course, I can't [inaudible 00:28:56] this working. Then we actually had a draft meeting of it when I actually made the design into the Figma. He actually told me about some ideas that you can actually implement, so I actually did that. Then he said, "Okay, this design is ready. You just have to code it, and I'm giving you one week."
And at that period of time, I knew nothing about React. Like I knew how to install React, of course, but I don't know how you're going to be making components or stuff like that. Scrimba comes for help. I opened the basic React course because I was actually not there. Bob is one of the best teachers I have ever seen in my life. Like big shout out to Bob, he's doing one of the best job on internet.
Alex Booker (29:32):
What do you like about Bob's teaching style?
Ansub Khan (29:34):
He just conveys things so easily. Like if you see the React topics, they are just so vast. And Bob is going to be like, "Okay, you can just do this, do this, do that. These are the basics, go with it." That is the type of style every teacher should be having because on YouTube, you are going to be seeing people who are going to be making simple topics complicated, but here's Bob who is just doing the opposite thing. He's just making complicated topic easier. So, I actually learned React from there. I actually watched videos for like three hours, and I got the basic idea of how you can actually make components in React. And I made that project in one day, I think. And he actually really liked that process. He actually said, "Okay, this is very interesting. You actually build it in just one day."
So he said, "Okay, we are done with this assignment project. You can just talk to the CTO." They vote for co-founders of Hyperloop, and now, they are co-founders of [inaudible 00:30:26]. So, he is also a very mission driven guy. He talked me about, "How can we focus more into the SEO and the performance of the website?" He said, "Entry level developers focus more on design and the layout of the website." But he says, "This is not something that can actually be helpful when you are building site for company. Because in the end, if a user is actually not able to load the website faster, what is the point of user interface? Because user is still lacking onto the website. You can't even load the website, so what is the point of the design when user can't even see the website?" So, that was actually a good point, and he said, "You should actually look into this and this is something which can be helpful for you later on." And that's how I actually got selected at the end.
I also talked to him for like one hour or two hour, and same where the questions just like CEO. He was more into other stuff, but yeah, the same questions of critical thinkings were there.
Alex Booker (31:20):
So, you left with your mind bent twice, basically. Tell us about the moment you got the news that you were going to work there.
Ansub Khan (31:28):
So, when the interview was actually going to end, he said, "Okay. And so, I'm very impressed with you and let's get you on board." And I was just thinking for [inaudible 00:31:36], like, did he really mean to get on board to the company, or onboard to something else? Like I was just so confused.
Alex Booker (31:42):
On to the [inaudible 00:31:44] maybe.
Ansub Khan (31:43):
Yeah, exactly. I was just thinking whether this thing is true or not. I actually told my sister, I actually told my mom, and they were like, "Obviously, it means that you are actually getting a job into the company." And I was like, "Oh damn, I just got the job." I opened Scrimba, and I just posted in the I got hired section that I finally got the job. Because that is basically, the community that actually helped me since the beginning. So, yeah. That's the story.
Alex Booker (32:11):
Sounds like you found a really great fit. Just to kind of wrap us, Ansub, I was wondering if you had any advice for anyone listening, learning to code, or hoping to break into the industry and become a junior developer. What are some of the things you wish you knew at the beginning?
Ansub Khan (32:28):
I actually want to tell some basic things that actually we forget. First that we usually don't read the Dogs. Dogs are something which is actually going to help you so much if you're just coding. For example, even in the React, if you are just stuck some words, first of all, look into the Dogs. Dogs can actually solve 60 or 70% of the problems. And usually, when we are just starting coding, Dogs can be very overwhelming for us. We are going to be like, "Okay, how can I just read so many things at once?" But if you're going to be practicing it, is going to be making your life so much easier. And second is that do not hurry in learning. It is actually a long race. Even if you're just getting the job, it is not the end. It is just the beginning, you have a lot of things to learn.
Alex Booker (33:46):
Getting a job is not the end, it's the beginning. I like that a lot, Ansub, and thank you so much for taking the time to join me on the Scrimba Podcast. Just one last question, really, which is that if you do design, and you do developments, and a little bit of like sales, apparently does that mean you get paid like double or triple the salary?
Ansub Khan (34:04):
I would say, yeah, it is more than average salary that we actually get in India, I would say.
Alex Booker (34:08):
Ansub, thank you so much. That was Ansub. Thank you for listening. If you've made it this far, you might want to subscribe for more helpful and uplifting episodes with recently hired juniors and industry experts [inaudible 00:34:22]. You can also tweet me your host, Alex Booker, and share what lessons you learned from the episode so I can thank you personally for tuning in. My Twitter handle is in these show notes. See you next week.